Everything I learned from my rabbi I passed on to you…
February 27, 2008
I recently was going through a book entitled Velvet Elvis, with the intention to do as the author said I should: “Test it. Probe it….Don’t swallow it uncritically.”
And so I did.
I decided to focus my reading on Movement Five—Dust. In this section, Bell focuses on “Jesus, the Jewish rabbi. Bell gives some historical background on when Jewish children usually began their studies of the Torah and what they studied. The following is directly quoted from the text:
“By the way, when Jesus’ parents found him in the temple area, how old was he? Twelve. Notice what the text says here: ‘They found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.’
Jesus later says to his disciples, ‘Remember, everything I learned I passed on to you.’
Did Jesus go to school and learn like the other Jewish kids his age?”
So Bell seems to indicate that these verses lead to the conclusion that perhaps Jesus had learned from other rabbis. After the quotes, there were footnote numbers, so I looked these up. The footnote for the last quoted verse says, “See John 15:15.” So I grabbed my Bible and looked up the verse. This is what my NIV said, “For everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.” I thought it was a little strange that the verses didn’t match up with what they were saying, so I looked in Velvet Elvis to see what translation the verses came from. It said the TNIV. So I looked up John 15:15 in this version. “For everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
It turns out that the verse in both translations emphasize: “everything I learned from my Father” and yet Bell forgot to put that phrase in his book. Maybe this is because the actual verse does not implicate that Jesus learned from the rabbis. What got me the most is that in Velvet Elvis, Bell has put this in his text as a quote—complete with quotation marks and everything. If I hadn’t taken the time to look up the footnote, and then the verse, I would have thought that John 15:15 said exactly what Bell quoted it to say.
But it doesn’t.
very interesting!
[...] Posted by poopemerges under Rob Bell This is from my friend Rymass’ site. HERE. It deals with every college boy’s favorite man crush Rob Bell…feel free to hop over and [...]
well done…I linked it, so with any luck you with be flooded with angry posters who are near tears with the indignity of it all
Interesting how we all like to take Scripture to make our points, but then don’t take into account the surrounding or exact Scripture. What’s Bell’s point in this chapter– is this a big deal or musing in passing?
Let’s make sure that we don’t commit the same error by only looking at part of what the author is saying as Bell did with not taking into account that Jesus learned from His Father.
Excellent analysis. I like how you actually went to the Bible to find out what it says.
Sadly, in “Repainting the Christian Faith” Rob Bell makes a habit of misquoting scripture to fit it into his made-up religion. Allow me offer another example.
In VE Bowel Movement Two: Yoke, Bell misquotes Luke 20:2-3 just like he misquotes John 15:15. This time, his misquote makes Jesus say that he is a Rabbi following in the tradition of John the Baptist.
The context of Luke 20 is that the chief of priests, the rabbis of the day, and the elders are all questioning Jesus about where he gets his authority to teach. (Side note – doesn’t this actually suggest that Jesus was NOT a Rabbi – since none of the Rabbis knew who taught him?)
As a response to this questioning on his authority, Rob Bell claims that Jesus says: “You tell me, where did John get his?” (Quotes and everything…)
But in the Biblical text, Jesus actually says:”I also will ask you one thing, and you answer me. The baptism of John – was it from heaven or from men?” (Keep in mind, the Holy Spirit appeared over Jesus and a voice from Heaven was heard – this was an incredible supernatural event…)
So while we could debate what theological conclusion should be made from Luke 20:2-3, there is no debate that Bell systematically misquotes the Bible and specifically Jesus Christ in “Repainting the Christian Faith”. And he does it in order to support his false premise that Jesus was a Rabbi.
I’m curious if Jesus were not a Rabbi, why do the apostles call him Rabbi numerous times in the Gospels, were they also disillusioned?
Wow. Bell has taken a cue from the master of twisted Scripture Rick Warren. Go figure. All parts of the same elephant in the church’s living room!
“poopemerges under Rob Bell”
Er.. Ahem. That’s unfortunate…cough cough.
Think that’ll be his next Nooma video?
[...] Everything I learned from my rabbi I passed on to you… « Rymaas’s Weblog Everything I learned from my rabbi I passed on to you… « Rymaas’s Weblog [...]
This can go either way. The purposeful omission of certain words in Scripture to support one’s point is textbook eisegesis. However, the full verse does support the point, so the eisegesis was unnecessary. The Father is the source of all truth, but to support the belief that He didn’t use humans for any of the growth/development/education of Jesus is, at best, laughable.
Paula: That is funny. Someone let me out…I don’t want to be under Bell…
Rick Warren and Rob Bell are not even in the same world. Warren might be a little shallower than you would like but Bell is anything but shallow. He is deep, and intentional, that is a very dangerous thing.
Ian: They called him teacher…the concept of rabbi does not come into use as we know it until after Jesus time. but eve nif he were a Rabbi you seem to have missed the point.
D
So, just to clarify, do you think that Jesus didn’t study anywhere? He never attended the same school the other kids did? Is your arguement with whether or not Jesus studied?
He was a Jewish boy. Jewish boys studied under rabbi’s. Do you have any kind of evidence that he didn’t? Or are you just playing “gotcha” with the fact that rob didn’t quote the entire verse?
brendt: Were humans involved in Jesus’ upbringing? Absolutely. A baby/child cannot take care of themself. My problem is that in this entire section of Velvet Elvis, Bell emphasizes Jesus’ humanity and hardly mentions his deity. But Jesus was also fully God. 100% omniscient. So Jesus did not have to be taught the ways of God. Jn 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” Jn. 24:49-50, “For I do not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
preson: I do believe that Jesus studied like other kids–that’s part of the whole being fully human thing. But do I think that he needed to study? Absolutely not. Jesus was also fully God.
I’m not trying to play “gotcha,” but rather, I want to highlight the importance of reading scripture–as it is. This is something that Bell frequently criticizes. But when you begin “repainting” what the scriptures say, you are crossing a line.
Preson: To me the issue is context…and use of the verse as well. I do believe that Jesus learned things from his teachers…but it this case he is clearly talking about what he learned “from the father,” could God have used human teachers to teach him? Sure. Is that explicit from the verse? No. It really is not a case of “gotcha” but of hermeneutic “slight-of-hand” on Bell’s part. He is using a verse to make a stronger case than the verse does and i just think it is a bad thing to be more sure than the Bible is…
Just out of curiosity, do IsadtheOmad and poopemerges associate defecation with non-Christians too, or is this graciousness reserved only for our brothers?
I do believe that Jesus studied like other kids–that’s part of the whole being fully human thing. But do I think that he needed to study? Absolutely not. Jesus was also fully God.
Jesus laid aside some of His attributes when he entered this world — omnipresence is a no-brainer, and there are others too. This did not make Him any less God.
So when you say that He didn’t need to study, are you saying that omniscience was not an attribute that He laid aside. Can you cite a Scripture to back that?
brendt – I was thinking along the same lines as you. Then I got out my copy of ‘Velvet’ and read the context of that passage and changed my mind. I think Rob made a bad choice, like hundreds if not thousands of other pastors every Sunday, to get a verse of Bible to support the idea he was trying to get across.
I like Rob. I like a lot of what he is saying but sometimes, just like the rest of us, he makes a mistake and/or he’s wrong.
In ‘Velvet’ he uses the same selective storytelling technique when he talks about starting their new church and having no idea how many people, if anyone would turn out for the first day. As a church planter I was blown away by the story until I found out the real history and turns out, not so much.
Some people communicate for effect. They are usually, if not always, criticized by those of us who details matter. Some of us communicate details but to very little effect. It would be great if we could all work together.
Brendt: I associate poop with all acts of humans and thir pursuits..but only because the apostle Paul did, and while i appreciate your heart rending cry for unity, there does in fact need to be something to be unified around. I would suggest the Gospel. And I would further suggest that the question is whether RB is preaching the gospel…or just tired social moralism (he should not feel bad most fundamentalist don’t preach the gospel either..just tired individual moralism), but on to the point.
Surely Jesus laid aside his some of his attributes. And surely he learn while on earth. But the bigger question that you want to ignore is this: Did Bell use this scripture properly? Not any other scripture…not tradition…did he use this scripture correctly?
i appreciate your … cry for unity
Please show me where I said anything about unity.
But the bigger question that you want to ignore is this:
Wow — and here I thought only God knew my heart.
Did Bell use this scripture properly?
For something that I allegedly want to ignore, I think I answered that pretty clearly in my original comment.
Brendt: Now I don’t want you to take this the wrong way because I get the feeling that you and I could one day frolic in the meadows together, but you seem a little crabby my friend…
The Cry For unity…Just a reference to you asking if I “only reserved it for brothers…”
My Heart…Wow that one is off the map I was just referring to your last post…
Pretty clearly…So you did, you answered that he was ultimately justified, (which totally makes sense under the “the end justifies the means” clause which you will find somewhere near the end of the Bible) though I will confess I did not see you first post when I replied. I sincerely apologize… You then called someone else’s view laughable…which make me wonder do you talk like that to everyone or only your brothers…
PS: I do admire your use of italics though..I can not for the life of me figure out how to use italics in Foxfire
Thank you for writing this,
whether we are a fan of Rob Bell or not Rymaas does a wonderful job of showing how important it is to seek out truth and not believe everything we are reading/told but to seek it out in scripture, and test it against the real truth. I believe we are all guilty of this, reading a book or watching a video without first going to scripture.
Praise the Lord that this writer [Rymaas] can challenge us to seek the Bible first and foremost.
As far as the fire being thrown between you two. I think Brett doesn’t like poo. [Personally I'm not a fan of poo either, it is gross]
There is a point to the fact that we cannot hold that to be true unless it was in scripture, a lot of Jewish boys did study under Rabbi’s but we must remember that Jesus was the son of a carpenter, so he most likely learned the trade from his father instead of studying in the temple, education was not as wide as it is here in today’s culture, they susally focused on one area of training/teaching. This also explains why later when he went back to his hometown, and the people were amazed and couldn’t understand why he spoke with such wisdom. “Is this Jesus, the son of the carpenter?” Those who watched him grow up and knew him best in childhood were very surprised, and to me this implies that he was not educated in the area.
* I said that Rob Bell committed eisegesis (that’s a bad thing).
* I said that this wasn’t even necessary to do to support what seemed to be his point.
* I actually didn’t say anything positive about Bell.
So how do you get out of that, that I stated that he was justified?
Seems that my only sin is not being as critical of Bell as some. And I’m the one that’s a little crabby?
one more try at the italic thing
before what you want to italicize, put a less-than sign (shift on comma) then the 9th letter of the alphabet, then a greater-than sign (shift on period)
then after what you want to italicize, do the same thing, but add a slash before that ninth letter
Although I have somewhat of a soft spot for Bell, his whole argument falls short in that Jesus bagged the crap out of “all the teachers of the Law” making Bell’s line of thinking mute.
Ray Bolger holding on line 1.
Good job Rymaas I thank God that He allows this sort of blogging to exist. Can you imagine the impact of Rob Bell’s runaway imagination without blogs like this and “the poop” as a counter-balance?
y’all get back at it now:)
Steve
I like Rob Bell…any assumption or claim that it would be a man crush…is laughable, contrary as well as immature…however I think misquoting the scripture without calling it paraphrase or announcing the words omitted is wrong. Even so this conversation is 6 feet deep! So let’s start there, it would be nice to know why the scriptures quoted omitted words, and still contained quotes in the book!
I think it’s important to understand that a Jewish Rabbi teaching in today’s Jewish Synagogue in Jerusalem, would call Jesus a Rabbi. History calls Jesus a Rabbi and teacher as well…see Josephus. He is called Rabbi several times by 5 different people in the scriptures, so any argument that He was not a Rabbi, sage, or teacher is ignoring history; also implying the term Rabbi was only used after the time of Jesus is historically incorrect!
Anyone who was surprised by His ability to reason from the scriptures and His wisdom calling Him the son of the carpenter would simply be using the Jewish; Yeshua Ben Yusef, or Jesus son of Joseph. Relating a young boy or girl to their parents name is normal, and using the parent’s occupation (Son of The Carpenter) was normal as well as using their name Just like Jesus speaking to Peter, Simon Bar Jonah…Peter son of Jonah, etc. For someone to be a well respected Rabbi and speaking with wisdom, and with such authority as Jesus did was one of the highest honors possible in the Galilee of 30 A.D, Today would be no different for someone who was not from a family with money in Northern Alabama, that educated themselves and experienced success in the real world, and went back home showing everyone what they had made of their lives, and someone in rural Alabama being surprised that someone from their small town made it to be a presidential candidate! To be a Rabbi or sage in the 2nd temple period was pretty special. Today it is still as special as it was back then. The Rabbis are some of the most respected members of the Jewish Community!
Finally, addressing the question if Jesus ever learned from men? A few people here seem to think Jesus just knew everything he ever needed to know from birth because He was 100% God; this would have to be a huge stretch and unsupported by scripture. Even John 15:15 in question here, doesn’t mean Jesus received everything He needed to learn from God only and then passed it on! I would hope everyone on this blog would give God the glory and honor for their studies by themselves or by teachers. Maybe teachers teach me but God is the ultimate teacher of truth, so everything I receive that is true from my teacher is actually coming from the father! This would also be a normal Jewish perspective among the Rabbis in the 1st century and even today! God holds the truth and His word (the scriptures which Jesus knew word for word) are straight from Him. So to tell someone as we teach it is from God is normal in most churches today I hope. So to those who hate calling Jesus human, consider
Phil 2:5-8 “Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God
As something to be used for His own advantage.7 Instead He emptied Himself (N) by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross.”
We need to stop being afraid to admit that Jesus was a man! He lived on earth and thank God for it, by His ability to live just like you and me and be tempted just like you and me in human flesh and not using His God-ness to abstain from sin, He reconciled the world back to God by not sinning and being the spotless, sinless, Lamb of God! Period. It was by His sinless ness that we are reconciled to God…a sinless life is no big deal for God…but when God came as a man, and considered His God-ness something He could leave behind and not grasp at, then we have redemption for the whole world!
i am exceptionally saddened to read some of the comments on here. poopemerges one is a sad name and two obviously has some inner stuff to deal with such as bitterness and hurt somewhere. You’re purpose in life seems to be to disgrace, humiliate, and call names of people i am guessing you’ve never met. grow up, get a life, and learn how to love god. period. find a purpose in life that glorifies god, not one that revels in poor wit aimed at the destruction of someone.
Wow arch you are so far off. Does it bother you that someone is calling out those who have a man crush on Bell and do not look to see if what he is saying lines up with the Bible.
Also have you ever met poopemerges. If you had you would know how much he lives to glorify Jesus and bring others to that point.
Have you met him arch? Seems like that was a little unloving of you to say that about someone that I’m guessing you’ve never met.
P.S. I would say that exposing heretics glorifies God.
I should say, im not saying brendt is a heretic, i’m referring to the person the post was written about.